{"id":153,"date":"2017-05-21T13:12:28","date_gmt":"2017-05-21T13:12:28","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/shaanifoundation.org\/eng\/?p=153"},"modified":"2022-06-02T14:03:23","modified_gmt":"2022-06-02T14:03:23","slug":"a-conversation-on-shaani","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/shaanifoundation.org\/eng\/a-conversation-on-shaani\/","title":{"rendered":"
A conversation on Shaani<\/center>"},"content":{"rendered":"
\"conversation<\/a>

A conversation on Shaani<\/p><\/div>\n

Feeroz Shaani: Dr. Edward Jay has had a very long association with India and Shaani since the late 50s. \u00a0How was shaani’s name introduced to you by your husband, Dr. Jay ? What picture did you draw of him?<\/p>\n

Sharon Jay: I don\u2019t actually remember Edward saying much about Shaani. At an earlier time, when we met, he would often talk to me about his research in India and he mentioned that there is a person named Shaani who was very helpful to him. He would tell me that Shaani was a very well known Hindi writer and yet a Muslim. And of course I was barely 20 and I did not know that in India everybody did not speak the same language and certainly I didn\u2019t know anything about Islam, and also I did not know anything about India. The picture I remember, looking back after 47 years would be him describing the relationship both in Bastar when his first wife Phyllis and he came to India and how they met Shaani for the first time, just walking down the street. Shaani was on a bicycle and stop and said \u201cYou must be Dr Edward Jay?\u201d<\/p>\n

Edward Jay: Not Dr., just Edward Jay<\/p>\n

\u2018\u2019Nights full of discussions which would end in fights\u2019\u2019<\/strong><\/p>\n

S.J: And the only thing I remember about all this was vivid descriptions of living in \u201cCharm House,\u201d Raipur, in 1967-68 before I met him. I met Edward when he returned from this field trip. So he was talking about the family and Shaani\u2019s three children and his wife. Apparently there was a balcony or something like that because I can remember him saying that Shaani and he would sit every night and have these long discussions which would end probably more than once in fights…. And the temper would be flying.<\/p>\n

EJ: It was not in Raipur, it was in Paragoan village near Raipur.<\/p>\n

FS: What used to be the bone of contention between the two of you?<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/a><\/p>\n

EJ: I don\u2019t remember… I don\u2019t know. Most of the time we agreed, but he asked me a lot of questions about the USA and he would compare it with India, questions about women\u2019s issues, dating, politics, etc. And then he would compare it with India and sometimes this would spark a debate between the two of us and eventually the debate would turn into a fight, not literally, of course, and all in a good-natured way.<\/p>\n

F.S: India is considered to be a very closed society though it has changed over the years a bit. Shaani, hailing from a middle class background, from a Muslim family which was considered even more conservative, did you really find him conservative?<\/p>\n

EJ: No he was not conservative at all. He used to take pride in himself for being modern. He used to criticize his friends a lot for being conservative. He would tell them to \u201cbe a bit more modern.\u201d<\/p>\n

\u2018\u2019I was shocked to see how Indian women were treated\u2019\u2019<\/strong><\/p>\n

SJ: I would jump in here. Being barely 21, he never told me that Shaani was liberal or conservative or traditional. I was shocked to see how Indian women were treated. It would take me aback when I saw what would happen in South TT Nagar, Bhopal, where Shaani and his family lived at the time. Outside there was a grassy ground. A beautiful garden. We would sit there and talk but it was me among all these men and any women who came by were in the kitchen with Shaani\u2019s wife Salma, and I wondered \u201cwhat is this…?!\u201d I mean, these women should be sitting in on discussions and participating and just not bringing food. I hardly knew what to say or do because it was so different from..? I realized that when Shaani would take us to his home there would be me with all these Indian men and my husband, and women would be there but always in the kitchen or somewhere else. And there I realized I should get up and cover my head and go in the kitchen or in some other room where women would be sitting and I would say hello to them. I did not know Hindi but still tried to spend few minutes with them. There was nothing in common and there was nothing to say, but I felt that just being there was important.\"\"<\/a><\/p>\n

EJ: Not to detract you from your wider point about the condition of women in India, but part of the reason was the language; Salma could not speak English, and the conversations among the men were mostly in English.<\/p>\n

SJ: I did not consider language an issue. I considered it a conservative society that needed to let women out of the kitchen.<\/p>\n

\u2018\u2019what I had expected of him…? no idea, I wasn’t mature enough\u2019\u2019<\/strong><\/p>\n

F.S: When you came to India, did you find Shaani to be what you imagined or expected?<\/p>\n

SJ: I can\u2019t say I found him in any particular way because I did not expect, I had no idea what to expect…I had no idea what India was like, I had no idea about the society….and I knew he was an intellectual and a very famous writer and that yes I could see every night at south T.T. Nagar in Bhopal, that everybody would come and there would be these literary discussions, talking about different books, every thing that I had expected of him in that sense but as far as what I had expected…? I had no idea, I wasn’t mature enough.<\/p>\n

\u2018\u2019Shaani gave me opportunities to be in situations that most people would not be with him\u2019\u2019<\/strong><\/p>\n

Parvez Ahmed: You travelled a lot in India; how much did you get to know about this country through Shaani?<\/p>\n

SJ: I would say that was really great between the two of them (Shaani & Edward), giving me different perspectives. Shaani gave me opportunities to be in situations that most people would not be with him….meaning college environment…intellectuals speaking in a plain literary discussion and I started to get this picture which created my idea of India. I still felt it was a very conservative country which I was not prepared for but we became friendly enough over the years when I was here that I felt comfortable enough to ask him certain questions and usually they were about why women were treated the way they were, what were the rituals around marriage, house keeping and all those types of things….and even personal grooming types of things because all those personal grooming types of things were different in the United States than they are here in India….and I did not have any idea so he exposed me to a lot of different types of people…and he always made me feel comfortable whenever I asked questions.<\/p>\n

\u2018\u2019this is my country, my culture, don’t tell me how to run my house\u2019\u2019<\/strong><\/p>\n

E.J.: Well one thing which I do remember… him getting annoyed at you when you brought up the subject of \u201cwhy don\u2019t you have Salma coming in?\u201d….and you did not like the way he treated her in general…<\/p>\n

SJ: No, I did not….<\/p>\n

EJ:….and he got very fed up with things and said this is my country, my culture and that\u2019s the way we do things here and don’t tell me how to run my house…<\/p>\n

SJ: Yeah..I was going to mention that whole thing…especially, if it was just the four of us. It was different if there was a whole group of people…you know…what I termed the Bhopal intellectual group… I would not have expected her necessarily to come out then, but if it was just the four of us, why couldn’t she come and sit there…we are not discussing anything complex.<\/p>\n

EJ: ….you didn’t like the way he ordered her to get this for us, make that for us…<\/p>\n

SJ:…but I will say, I finally did…I took her out of the kitchen, I brought her down and Shaani dealt with it. I said would you like a drink?…Salma and I had a way of sort of communicating..sign language or whatever you may call it…and I gave her a drink and we all sat there very happily.<\/p>\n

\u2018\u2019I found it very unusual that this Muslim man knows so much about Hindu worship\u2019\u2019<\/strong><\/p>\n

FS: Shaani was very impulsive…a man of strong liking and disliking. Can both of you respond to that aspect of his character?<\/p>\n

EJ: Well, what I liked about Shaani was right from the beginning he was not an obsequious person, he did not treat me as if I was some sort of vile creature or something…..he treated me equally…I said, \u2018\u2019 just call me Ed, you don\u2019t have to call me sahib\u201d and he took to that right away so in that sense he was quite modern in the way he would adjust to an American coming to India. He liked the idea of this informality that we (Americans) had. Very quickly he learned to discuss things like his writing and letters here, without any formality. And he used to recite couplets of Urdu poetry which I found fascinating. So I leaned a lot that way and he also told me a lot about Islam, even though he did not care to be very religious himself and he told me why he respected and liked certain aspects of Islam, emphasizing brotherhood, like its a simple religion, few requirements as compared to the Hindu religion for example; but he was also very interested in Hinduism. He told me a lot about Hinduism initially and I found it very unusual that this Muslim man knows so much about Hindu worship.<\/p>\n

\u2018\u2019as a Muslim, knew much more about Hinduism than any Hindu I ever met\u2019\u2019<\/strong><\/p>\n

SJ: I would agree with everything Ed said just now..that was one of the strongest points of Shaani\u2019s personality. Now when I look back over all these years what I discovered is that he, as a Muslim, knew much more about Hinduism than any Hindu I ever met knows about Islam. It would just shock me over the years that some Hindus I would talk to would say this or that and I would just look at them like…\u2019\u2019you can\u2019t be serious, its not even relevant.\u201d<\/p>\n

PA: Did you find any resemblance between his writing and his personal life?<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/a><\/p>\n

SJ: That\u2019s hard to say. I know that after Indira Gandhi was assasinated, when he was living in Delhi in Mayur Vihar, there was a Sardarji (Sikh) whom he wanted to take in (for protection against rioters) but Salma didn\u2019t want to take him in because of threats to the families offering protection. So if I remember correctly, there was some short story regarding that but as far as I know, it was never translated into English. There would always be discussions between Shaani and Edward or Shaani and me concerning his writing and his life. I suppose Edward has told me so much about his father, how Shaani became married to Salma, the whole background in Bastar…so I figured it had to play a big part in his whole thinking but how much it was reflected in his writing, I can\u2019t say.<\/p>\n

\u2018\u2019Kala Jal was clearly and largely his autobiography\u2019\u2019<\/strong><\/p>\n

EJ: I think Kala Jal was clearly and largely his autobiography; when he wrote it, it was very much part of his personal experience. I read a few of his stories translated into English and they were very similar to what he would I talk about in everyday life…I think they were very close.<\/p>\n

FS: Both of you, particularly Edward, have been visiting India for a long time and knew Shaani in and out but you (Sharon) had an opportunity to spend a lot of time with him while teaching here in the American Embassy School. Can you put a finger on one particular aspect of Shaani\u2019s personality and say \u2018\u2019oh, I didn\u2019t know about it.\u2019\u2019<\/p>\n

\u2018\u2019just didn\u2019t know he could be so vicious at times\u2019\u2019<\/strong><\/p>\n

SJ: I suppose..because when I was living in the same apartment house (Rosewood) here in Mayur Vihar Extension (I) when I was teaching in the American School, there was closer proximity than Edward and I had previously in our own place in Bhopal, with Shaani in Delhi. I was much closer to the family during that period (1991-1995). One thing I had no idea about was his temper. I just didn\u2019t know he could be so vicious at times. I saw this one time in this apartment in Samachar and I was totally taken aback. I didn\u2019t think he could lose his temper to that degree.<\/p>\n

EJ: That\u2019s strange; that\u2019s a very unusual side of him. I never remember him getting extremely angry or violent. He had a reputation for being short tempered but I saw very little of that… maybe because we got along so well.<\/p>\n

SJ: I can\u2019t say it happened quite often and on the whole he was very generous, outgoing, always friendly. He would talk to the Paanwala, talk to the Rikshawala. Sometime we would come back from Sahitya Akademi and we would be going to Pocket-I (Mayur Vihar) and then he would start talking to the Rikhshawala and I would say, \u2018\u2019we don\u2019t have to find out the entire life of the Rikshawala; all we need to do is go back home.\u201d But he wanted to know the ideas and perspectives of the Paanwalas and Rikshawalas.<\/p>\n

\u2018\u2019he chose to write in Hindi to reach a wider audience, including Hindus\u2019\u2019<\/strong><\/p>\n

FS: Shaani is one of the very few writers who wrote about the plight of Indian Muslims, and being a Muslims himself, after publication of a few of his stories he was branded as communal, a tag he kept fighting until he died.<\/p>\n

SJ: No, I don\u2019t think so…I don\u2019t know where that came from.<\/p>\n

EJ: Hindus came to his house all the time..he would discuss literature and world affairs with them. He would kind of make fun of Hinduism, often about something which we both shared, but he had no deep dislike of Hinduism. He had a lot of Hindu friends and he had a lot of respect for Hindu writers. In fact he chose to write in Hindi to reach a wider audience, including Hindus. Being a Muslim he had a tough time finding housing and he was upset and resentful about discrimination, but he was never personally attacking Hindus because they were Hindus.<\/p>\n

FS: This Hindu-Muslim, Nationalism and Patriotism remind me of Shaani arguing: \u2018\u2019I had a choice to migrate to Pakistan but I chose to stay here in India and this way I am more patriotic and Nationalist than you are.\u201d<\/p>\n

SJ: Yes…I remember when we talked about India and Pakistan and he always said \u201cI am an Indian first.\u201d And yes Edward is right, he wanted to reach a wider range of Hindus with Muslim issues, and that\u2019s why he chose to write in Hindi.<\/p>\n

\u2018\u2019he feared he would be forgotten\u201d<\/strong><\/p>\n

FS: What one thing would you say to his face had he been alive today?<\/p>\n

SJ: I would say something about his health. He had diabetes, and he would come back upset after visiting a Doctor, and would say that the doctor did not respect him. And I would reply that you are going there to get a medical opinion and other things had nothing to do with it. I felt that he passed away sooner than needed because he would not deal with the fact that he had diabetes and needed to take certain precautions. Salma would cook appropriate food and he would say I can\u2019t eat it because it has no salt in it and he would go on and on in this way. That was probably the most difficult struggle of his life, dealing with that kind of change. For him as a young man dealing with partition and changes that occurred, was easier, but to deal with the changes in the later part of his life, particularly after retirement, was difficult. He had a horrible time dealing with it. He made everybody around him insane.<\/p>\n

EJ: Early in our acquaintance I told him that my family had a history of diabetes and therefore I take precautions, do exercise and get regular medical checkups, etc. He just shrugged his shoulders and said \u201cI have a lot of friends who have diabetes and instead of rice they just eat chapatis.\u201d So Shaani had this kind of attitude which unfortunately caught up with him. He used to say, \u201cI want to live my life, and I want to enjoy it; I would rather live happily in a short life than miserably in a long life.\u201d<\/p>\n

SJ: But I think part of that came with his retirement. There was a radical change in Shaani when he was forced to retire. He was depressed and felt that he was no longer in touch with the literary community and that he would be forgotten by them. He did not say this to me directly but I could feel it.<\/p>\n\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Feeroz Shaani: Dr. Edward Jay has had a very long association with India and Shaani since the late 50s. \u00a0How was shaani’s name introduced to you by your husband, Dr. Jay ? What picture did you draw of him? Sharon Jay: I don\u2019t actually remember Edward saying much about Shaani. At an earlier time, when […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[6],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-153","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-activity"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"http:\/\/shaanifoundation.org\/eng\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/153","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"http:\/\/shaanifoundation.org\/eng\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"http:\/\/shaanifoundation.org\/eng\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/shaanifoundation.org\/eng\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/shaanifoundation.org\/eng\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=153"}],"version-history":[{"count":10,"href":"http:\/\/shaanifoundation.org\/eng\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/153\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":473,"href":"http:\/\/shaanifoundation.org\/eng\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/153\/revisions\/473"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"http:\/\/shaanifoundation.org\/eng\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=153"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/shaanifoundation.org\/eng\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=153"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/shaanifoundation.org\/eng\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=153"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}